February 24, 1994 The meeting of the Supervisors of Franklin Township, held in the Township office was called to order by Chairman Benjamin Sitek with the Pledge of Allegiance at 0852 hours. Present were Sitek, Herbert Netzler, David Henderson, Attorney Mark Prenatt, Rosemary Palmer, and Wayne Cousins. HEARING ON ORDINANCE #1-94 WEIGHT LIMIT ON FRY #2-94, EMERGENCY WEIGHT LIMITS Ben Sitek asked for comments. Sitek - asked why the ordinance allows 3,000 pounds over the 3 ton limit in the emergency limits ordinance and 3,000 pounds over the 6 ton limit on the Fry road ordinance. Mark Prenatt - if you are over the weight limit, you get fined. When you are over the 3,000 pound leeway you pay an additional fee. You can fine a violator for being overweight and over the 3,000 pounds leeway. Dave Henderson - there's an allowance built in. Wayne Cousins - who is going to enforce this. How are you going to stop them. You can't stop them. PA State Police has to do it and they don't have the manpower. Herb Netzler - enforcement is a problem. Prenatt read the enforcement guidelines. Cousins - what about school buses. Henderson - we'll let them alone. Sitek - some people will be conscientious, others will try and if they are caught at least we have a leg to stand on. The residents on that road will have to report to us. Henderson - all the supervisors in the county need to get tough. During frost time people need to know you can't haul heavy loads over the roads. Discussion on bonding. No further comments. Denver Ireland arrived at 0904 hours. BID OPENING, DIESEL FUEL AND GAS, 0905 hours Two bids were received. Erie Petroleum - gas - .6023/gal. tax included diesel fuel - .700/gal. tax included GasOil Distribution Systems (bid arrived unsealed) - gas - .4600/gal. no tax included diesel fuel - .535/gal. no tax included Because of the confusion concerning one bid including tax and the other excluding tax, Dave Henderson moved to table accepting a bid until we can investigate further. Sitek seconded. Carried. MINUTES Henderson moved to accept the minutes of 2/8/94 as presented. Sitek seconded. Carried. VISITORS Rosemary Palmer - my name is Rosemary Palmer and I'm here representing myself only and have no authority to represent the airport authority in any way, shape or form. I'm here to try to persuade you guys that suing the authority, and me, and Don, if in fact that is what you're doing, we haven't received notice and have just heard rumors that that is the case, isn't ultimately going to help either you or us. From our perspective, this is what happened with the millings issue. We had some extra millings like we have done with lots of other construction projects. We want to help out government entities. So what we do is when we knew we had extra, by the way they weren't ours except for the contractor who was working for us, didn't have any reason to remind us that it was in his contract because it was in his best interest that we give them away since he would otherwise have to truck them away and get rid of them himself. So we approach government entities. Normally the procedure is to approach Erie city first and then others. Now we've done this over several construction projects. Basically the conversation goes like this, we have some extra stuff, is there any way you guys could use it. Well sure we can use that or no we can't use that. Well fine lets arrange for you to pick it up. In this particular case my understanding, I didn't take the call but my understanding is that Don got the call from Mr. Netzler saying, hey look it, we can take all you've got or all that you can give us, I wasn't there, I don't remember the exact conversation. Don's response just like to any other township is that's great if you can use it, it helps us, it helps you. It's a favor sort of thing. If we had of had any inkling that you were relying on any sort of amount or even that you were relying on it to do a particular road or in any way believing that this was something more than a simple favor, we would have disabused you of that because for us we were not in any way, shape or form making a contract to deliver anything. What we were saying was yes we have some extra stuff and you guys can use it, more power to you that's great. We don't mind helping other folks out. And I suspect that if you talk to other government officials for whom or with whom we've given excess material over time I don't think any of them would have perceived it as some sort of agreement to deliver x amount. As a matter of fact, when I look at it I say, well that couldn't possibly be the case because if it were a contract then we would have been able to hold you accountable if you didn't truck it off but of course that's not the way it was. It was a simple favor kind of issue. When I look at it and I say, I mean I'm sorry that the road wouldn't of been approved and I'm sorry that there's been this gross misunderstanding but in my mind I'm saying to myself, how does a Township to sue the authority and how it certainly doesn't help the authority because we can't afford attorney fees either just like you guys can't. And furthermore it doesn't get your road built which is what you as consumer would ultimately want. I'm here to answer any questions you might have, to persuade you we had no idea that you guys were doing things in a more formal sort of fashion because you perceived it as something different than what we were doing. If we had of we would not ever have given you that impression. We would have told you, we would have flat said, hey listen don't count on this, don't do, I mean don't do this because we can't promise you this. As far as the amount that we sold, we would have told you right off, if we find another buyer for it, which we try to find a buyer first and couldn't find a buyer when Mr. Netzler called, we would have told you, if we find somebody who's going to pay us for it you known we have to dispose of it for someone who's a paying customer. We thought we were doing you a favor. And we had no idea that we would be in this position across the table with you guys feeling really angry at us for doing you a favor. From us it was like a good Samaritan, hey we're all in this together, we're all government entities. We all you know ought to help each other out when we can and I just can't see how a law suit is going to fix that. When I think, I mean I have no idea what the law suit is about assuming there is one because I haven't seen it, but it seems to me that if you're really interested in millings because you have a problem with the road a far smarter way of doing it would be to ask the authority if they are doing any other projects and tell them what your specific needs are and see if there's a way your needs can be met. It seems to me that that's a far more productive way of going about it. It also seems to me that that's a much wiser way of use of limited Franklin Township and airport authority resources. Our--sometimes when people sue people insurance companies sum things for nuisance value but our, the authority's policy for a long time has been to only pay when we are liable to someone. There isn't anybody who believes that this was anything more than a simple attempt, a simple favor for which we have at this point, assuming that it's true that you've sued us, been kicked in the teeth. And we hope, I hope that you'll reconsider because I don't think it helps you and I don't think it helps the authority and ultimately I think everybody looses except perhaps for legal counsel because they get paid for the fight on both sides. I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have. Netzler - I ain't going to say nothing about me and your conversation on the phone until the appropriate time because a law suit has been filed. And therefore I'm not going to say nothing except in front of the judge if it gets that far. So that's my comment. Palmer - do you really want to invest $15,000 to try it. I don't see how, in my mind I'm saying what possible, I understand you wish that it hadn't happened this way, but I'm saying to myself what possible legal theory can you prove that will hold us accountable for this. What possible--. Netzler - in the first place we're not going to have no $15,000 in this, right Mark. But as I said, where I set, the Board said we should file suit and we set and went over it at length and I firmly believe we have a hell of a good case. And so does the attorney because we set down and talked to them and so I'm not going to get into it. Palmer - but you also talked to them only knowing one side of the facts and one side of what's provable and unprovable, Mr. Netzler and that's a very skewed way of looking at it. Your attorneys are not going to be able to give you an assessment of your strength of you case until we've both invested a considerable amount in discovery. Because they don't know what the evidence from the other side will be. Netzler - I think we pretty well know what the evidence from the other side would be and what you said here today backs up more or less what I told them what the other side would say so with that I ain't going to say no more, right Mark. Prenatt - right, I'd advise you not to say any more. My name is Mark Prenatt. We did file the lawsuit on Wednesday, no Tuesday, and we wouldn't have filed the lawsuit unless we did think that we had a good case. And I can't comment on it any further until we go into it as far as the attorney for the authority or the attorney for you contacts us. I appreciate your coming here and expressing your feelings. But right now we can't do anything as far as negotiations or anything like that without your attorney or the authority attorney present. Palmer - I'm not talking about negotiations. I'm saying that this Board could today decide, wait a moment here, let's take a another look at it, let's withdraw the law suit, let's go talk to them about it. Let's not waste legal fees on this. If we can iron it out in some other sort of way. Prenatt - they've already gone through that. Palmer - but they've done it without ever coming to the authority or talking to the authority or any one with the authority without ever hearing the other side it. Prenatt - the authority can come to us now and talk to us about it and I think the authority's attorney was already involved in it and if there were any kind of negotiation between the authority and the Township there's going to be attorneys involved in it no matter what whether the lawsuit is filed or not. So we're at the point where they can come to us and we'll sit down and talk and see what we can do about this. Palmer - and I'm saying that as soon as you get into filing lawsuits you get hardened positions which do not easily reflect negotiable positions so you come to reasonable solutions. Prenatt - I don't agree with that. I think the law suit is filed in order to protect the Township and we can still set down and negotiate and work something out and the lawsuit can be withdrawn, it can be settled. There's going to be attorneys involved no matter what whether the lawsuit is filed or not. Palmer - it's just not the way that people who are honorable people who are trying to do what's best go to first. Franklin Township's noted for their helping neighborly sort of point of view and the idea of using the legal system which is the most expensive and times consuming system that we actually have to iron out problems is last resort stuff, that's not first resort stuff. And I just feel like that the whole issue has not been fully considered. Prenatt - I appreciate your comments and I don't think we should comment on it any further. Sitek - I don't have any comment on it. I believe what the attorney said that if you people have something you want to talk over with your attorney or who represents you with our attorney and the lawsuit can be withdrawn if there's an agreement of some kind. I think that's where it stands. I think it's fair. I have no other comment. Wayne Cousins - on this vein, if I might ask, what kind of contract is involved here. Netzler - we ain't saying nothing, Wayne. We ain't going to sit here and discuss nothing on this here. If you want to talk to some of us afterward, fine, but at this meeting we're mute on it. Sitek - we can't take no comments or discuss anything. Denver Ireland - I got one comment. You're from the airport right. Palmer - yes, well I'm not here officially in that regard at the moment. Ireland - I realize that but it's over this millings at the airport. You're guys are suing I know, right? But if you guys sue do you think the airport will ever call you guys up again and offer you guys millings at the airport? Netzler - I doubt if they ever will again and they never did. They never contacted us. Ireland - so you contacted the airport? Netzler - no, I contacted the contractor. But as I said, that's all the further that I'm gonna go on that there point. Because we've been all through this here and we're not gonna jeopardize our situation with discussing it. Sitek - I think that there's movement on their part if they want to take it. Palmer - and I'm suggesting that you've put the authority in the position of having to defend themselves and me personally to defend myself and that does not bode well for some sort of interim solution which you need which is millings for your roadways which we may be able to provide to you without real impact on us. Prenatt - and that's something we can sit down and discuss. And like I said, before we even filed a lawsuit the attorney Don Wright was involved in this. Palmer - actually I don't believe the attorney--Don Wright told us he had resolved it and that there was going to be no lawsuit filed which means that communications between the two of you and the law firms was not the kind that suggests that, yeah we talked about it and we understand what they're doing and yes - it wasn't that way. And furthermore, you're representing that he was somehow a part of it. His understanding conveyed to us was, yeah they called and yeah we sent them some documents and we think it's resolved. Prenatt - well it's not resolved and that's why the lawsuit was filed. Palmer - I just hate to see the positions harden to the point where any millings that happen this year or next year or the year after which is the last millings we'll have at the airport and it will all happen before the lawsuit is tried because that's how long lawsuits take. I just hate to see it work out that way and I suspect it will. Sitek - we gotta leave it at that. It's your peoples next move. Palmer - and again, what my positions going to be personally first of all I'm going to seek indemnity but second of all I'm going to say, look it, I didn't do a darn thing. And we don't have any obligations to pay in any way, shape or form. Netzler - the only answer I can give to that is that's your prerogative. And we have our prerogative. Palmer - certainly you do and I suggest that it's not in the best interest of the people you serve. Sitek - thank you for your comments. Anything else from the visitors. Cousins - yeah I got to say, Rosemary happened to marry a friend of mine, so I'm betwixt and between here. You guys have been my friends, her husband has been my friend and I'm ignorant of the situation and I'm sorry about that too. I read something in the paper about that last summer. That was the last I heard of it. I'm notorious for not being strong on attorneys and their workings but I have to agree with Rosemary that I think two people can sit down and talk things out without the assistance of a knowledgeable attorney but- Henderson - we tried that, Wayne. Cousins - apparently it's, well that's what you say, Dave, but that ain't the way I heard it. Like I said you're my friends and I'm sorry this thing even came about. I hope there is a reasonable solution. One government body attacking another in the county just seems a little, I don't know, it just won't help our situation with other municipalities I can assure you of that. I'm not real knowledgeable but I'm smart enough to know how people feel about things like that. When you look and see somebody entangled in something like that they're gonna be damned reluctant to be involved with Franklin Township. You know it and I know it. It's not right. I'm sorry to see it but I realize there's nothing that can be done about it now. Sitek - I have one comment to make about that. You talk about people getting together. As I set here, I hear pros and cons ever since it happened. But I have never seen anybody from the other side make an approach to this Board as a group. Cousins - you're probably right Ben. Palmer - but we've never heard you guys come to us either. Let's be fair about this, if we want to assume responsibility for what I feel injured and they feel injured, we feel injured because we are being accused of something when we were trying to do you a favor. You feel injured because you feel like you didn't get what you thought you bargained for. When people are hurt on both sides, what happens is they get in their corners and each person feels like the other person has to approach first and I'm saying that you let that get in the way with a solution, that doesn't help anybody, it doesn't help either side. And I am here approaching you. It's true I'm not representing the authority, it's true I have no authority to do that, it's true that every attorney in the world would tell me not to show up here but I'm here because I'm saying, hey look it, it's clear they're hurt. It's clear there's something funny going on on their side of the story. And heck, maybe they haven't heard our side, they haven't heard anything about it, they haven't talked to any of the people on the other side of the conversations with Mr. Netzler. They haven't talked to anyone else involved so how can they possibly know so I said well I'll come out and share that with them so they can have a fuller picture so that whatever hurt feelings happened, you know, can be resolved. I mean it's not like--we're sorry that this happened. Mr. Netzler says that they never offered to us, we never knew that you needed it. We offered it to townships, we've offered stuff to townships all over the place, we've never known you needed it. People have to talk to each other. Sitek - well I made my comment. Ireland - how much are you suing them for? Netzler - we're not going to answer nothing on it. Sitek - that's it, that's the end of it. Ireland - well it'll be in the papers, you guys know that. Netzler - at the appropriate time then we can talk about it but until then, you know--. Sitek - they comment and they talk, there may not even be a lawsuit. Let's go on with other things. Ireland - I kinda agree there, let's get on with this business, too. You're suing somebody, you're using everybodies tax dollars to sue them, what if you lose? What are you guys gonna gain if you lose. Sitek - I have no comment. Netzler - let's get on with the meeting. He's got to get in to the hospital and we're not gonna sit here and chew over this deal and we've said that enough times, okay? The deal with the millings at the airport and the lawsuit is mute and I'm going and this Board's going and Dave has to get in to the hospital and we're not going to sit here and chew over stuff that we're not allowed to chew over. Sitek - you have anything else? Ireland - Yeah, I do. I just want to know if you guys are going to put any gravel on Silverthorn Road this year to fill the potholes. There's a mile and a half of potholes. You guys got any plans to put any gravel down. Henderson - no. It's not in the 4 year road plan. It'll be graded and scarfired in the spring. It's to early to tell if gravel will be put in the potholes. We put gravel on the roads everywhere in the spring. That's why we have that big stockpile. Discussion on road conditions, frost, potholes, grading last fall. Other roads were graded two and three times after we graded Silverthorn and the potholes are no where near as bad. You told me not to grade yours. Bid for Gas, Diesel Fuel - Herb said he didn't want to table the bids. The GasOil bid was not sealed so it is not legal, we can't accept it. Attorney Prenatt agreed it has to be a sealed bid. Henderson - we need to be more specific on the bid specs. There is confusion on the taxes with the new laws and new taxes. It appears one bid included and one bid did not include taxes. We can rebid and investigate the new taxes and laws. I'd like to see how this relates to the state bid. Netzler - with GasOil in Chapter 7 or 11, they may be in trouble with their taxes. Prenatt - they're required by law to collect taxes. Sitek moved to rebid after investigation. Henderson seconded. Carried. REPORTS Superintendent - Dave reported that a plow wing was damaged and repaired; Hough 2 engine is okay, will be moving on with the turbo; Ben is taking over until Sunday while Dave is out of service while Ann is in the hospital; repaired wash outs; got some material from Russell Standard and they put it on the roads. Netzler - ask Bob to use a tandem and cut down on the weight over the roads. Hough 2 - Herb has the turbo and will take it to Langners. Discussion on where to get parts. Rosemary Palmer left the meeting at 0938 hours. Phone Line Bill - discussion. Ben moved to pay the bill, Herb seconded. Carried. County Aid - on hold. Dave said that at the March 8 meeting we will determine what money will allow us to do. We need to get the gravel bid out. ESTA wants some and Frosty will take crushed from the Zessinger pit. Will decide on the 8th. Netzler - when maintaining a road with county aid we're okay but for construction we need all the permits involved with storm water runoff. Henderson - Russ Atkins says 3" or more gravel is a construction project. Snow Plowing Across Road - Dave reported that we got 6-8 complaints after residents received the letter. One thing is discouraging, Ben turned in a lot of names, Herb didn't. Several complained that others they know didn't get a letter. The policy guide should help to solve the problem. Everyone will get the guide. Will take comments on March 8 from the Supervisors on the policy letter. JCB - parts are on order. Plow for Grader - will look for plow at the upcoming auction. FINANCIAL AND TAXES Bills - discussion on the repairs for the JCB. Dave felt JCB should pay for the repair, our argument isn't with Anderson who did the repair work. Herb said JCB would reimburse Anderson. Discussion on the Lake Erie Supply bill which included doors and operators, will pay from the building fund. Herb moved to pay the bills as listed excluding $1,739.97 from Anderson (repairs to JCB), hold Certified Labs and Harbor Freight, including the EIT claim. General fund - $8,300.10 Building fund - $1,791.52 EIT - $1,452.00 Fire Dept. Fund - $480.00 (their remaining share of wk. comp. for 1994). Payroll - Ben moved to approve payroll #3-94 and #4-94. Herb seconded. Carried. Computer Update - letter requesting quotes was sent, will get information back soon. PLANNING, ZONING AND HEALTH DEPARTMENT Industrial Parks - Herb asked for authorization to send a letter of intent for the 30 acres south of Amtek. You can only apply for one grant a year. Henderson - can the letter by written loosely to include the north acreage. Netzler - one $50,000 grant will easily be eaten up on the south 30 acres. I can wait on the letter until the March 8th meeting. SOLICITOR Cable TV - the letter is finished and will be sent to 15 cable companies. Herb moved to make Dave the contact person. Ben seconded. Carried. Load Limit Ordinances 1 & 2 - Henderson moved to approve Ordinance #1-94 Weight Limit on Fry Road and Ordinance #2-94 Emergency Weight Limit. Netzler seconded. Carried. Eminent Domain - Mark reported he talked to Barry Drew who said the township would have to pay fair market value to eminent domain the property at the s.e. corner of Eureka and West Stancliff. To take it through a private tax sale, the county sells it with a minimum bid of $300 and would clean up the back taxes. Drew said we could approach the owner, buy it and he would go before the county to get the taxes exonerated. The school district has agreed to exoneration already. Discussion. Prenatt - the owner must be notified and the taxing authority. The minimum bid is $300 at auction. Netzler - if someone buys it other than us or Crandall, we can notify the new owner to clean it up. Dave moved to go the private tax sale route on the property. Herb seconded. Carried. IntraGlobal - Herb reported that Pete Holmchenko was to go out there and to the travel trailer on Mohawk. Prenatt will contact Pete to get it moving. Airport Milled Material - Mark reported that the law suit has been filed and the airport authority, Rosemary Palmer, Don Buttons and Chemung served. Sitek - I hope we can get together and talk. Front Footage on Silverthorn - Mark said he would have to look at tax maps, determine owner, look at deeds to determine frontage. Henderson - we can supply index numbers, owners and addresses. Netzler -we will get everything together and let the residents make up their minds. Emergency Evacuation - State Statute #7501 states that the political subdivision has the authority to declare an emergency and evacuate. Herb said the Supervisors are to meet first and we need to set up an agreement with McKean and Edinboro. Prenatt - make sure the fire department knows the Supervisors make the decision, not them. The Supervisors can not be sued because this is not a civil liability. The person causing the evacuation must pay for the costs incurred. Prenatt - you have the authority to declare an evacuation. After 7 days the governor declares. You need a written agreement with the fire department and make sure they know the Supervisors declare the emergency. I will call the State Attorney General to see where he got his meeting information. Garbage Contract - Dave said the basic idea is to sell bags, put them in the bin and the bidder picks them up once a week. The successful bidder will also pick up all garbage within the township. During March, April and May pick up must be done with a small truck which will bring the garbage to a central spot to be put into the large compactor truck. The main thing is to keep the heavy trucks off the roads in the spring. One question is whether this is a township operated system or operated by the vendor. If we operate it we bill and if vendor operated they bill. The problem will be the homeowner who doesn't pay his bill. Ben added that the homeowner is responsible for his garbage. Netzler - in the agreement put in something about plastic garbage containers blowing around. Cousins - if you have one hauler and find garbage around the township, they must clean it up. Henderson - the vendor must make sure the containers are placed back off the roadway. Prenatt will request specs. from Millcreek Twp. We need to bid by July, 1994. OLD BUSINESS Sesquicentennial, Safety Meetings, Health Care Provider List, Employee Rights - nothing. F.D. Snow Plowing Request - Ben reported he talked to John Hudy. When the plows leave the building they will move the snow and also when they return to the building. Ben will take the backhoe over and move the snow if needed. NEW BUSINESS Reissue Year End Adjustment Check to F.D. - they lost the check. Ben moved to reissue the check for $3,379.87 if needed. Dave seconded. Carried. Storm Water Report - Herb reported on the meeting he attended and showed a copy of forms needed for construction on roads. Before bank work can be done on W. Stancliff, we have to contact Soil Conservation on seeding, mesh needs to be used if near a stream. Fines on the mandate is $25,000 minimum. Maintenance on roads is exempt but construction must comply. Henderson - if we're using state liquid fuel money and put on more than 2" of gravel it's a construction project. Netzler - we took an oath to uphold the laws, any roadwork we do we must comply with these laws. Man in Travel Trailer on Mohawk - Mark will get in touch with Pete. The trailer is undersized, possibly no septic. DER Meeting with Public at F.D. - Herb will check on booking the hall for April 25 or 26. Discussion on septics. CORRESPONDENCE Firemans Dinner April 5 - all three Supervisors will attend and will invite 2 firemen. ECATO School - Ben and Dave will attend the March 3 meeting with Jim Merry only. Ben will take days and Herb nights and the weekend while Dave is off to care for his wife. ADJOURN Sitek called the meeting adjourned at 1048 hours. Bonnie J. Bernhardt, Secretary